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WHAT? i'm no programmer...

#1 User is offline   joepsycho 

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Posted 17 September 2003 - 08:37 PM

I'm not a programmer or a game maker but would someone please explain to me what C++ is? I asked a friend who majors in computer programming and he said i wouldn't understand. Someone lay it down in layman terms....
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#2 User is offline   Koji 

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Posted 17 September 2003 - 09:25 PM

Well C is a programming language, and C++ is like the SUPER C! It can do everything C can do, with extra features! basically it's like mzx 2.51 and mzx 6.9c! C++ has ways of doing more with less code, and ways to implement things that would be very difficult if not improbable(impossible is a word you should never use when refering to what can be done in C) in C.

I know someones going to elaborate on this better than I probably could so, I'll just leave it at that. Ask Exo/lancer/anyone else who programs with C/C++.

C is like a plain donut, but C++ it like "Ooooh, sprinkles!"
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#3 User is offline   astral 

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Posted 17 September 2003 - 09:31 PM

And a lot of people don't like C++ because of the sprinkles =.
i thought you said weast
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#4 User is offline   Koji 

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Posted 17 September 2003 - 10:29 PM

Yeah, some people stick to normal C. C can do whatever you want it to do, and C++ just gives you other methods of doing things.

So, some people feel like sprinkles others Don't :cry:
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#5 User is offline   Skylark 

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Posted 17 September 2003 - 10:29 PM

Bah. C++ is like object-oriented C, AFAIK, but I could be wrong. It's similar to C, but I don't use it myself...

Erm, a donut with sprinkles on it? No, the two languages are two different ways of doing things. You could emulate object orientation using regular C, and everything you can do in C++ can be done in C. I just like C better.

This post has been edited by Skylark: 17 September 2003 - 10:36 PM

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#6 User is offline   joepsycho 

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Posted 17 September 2003 - 10:50 PM

so C++ is good and bad as in
Good: it has lots of extra features?
Bad: it has too much clutter?
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#7 User is offline   Skylark 

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Posted 17 September 2003 - 11:28 PM

Ehn, extra features? No, different features. The two languages are based on different ideas, even though the code is still similar.
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#8 User is offline   Kuddy 

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Posted 18 September 2003 - 12:18 AM

This is so totally the wrong forum... so... *toss*
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#9 User is offline   Koji 

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Posted 18 September 2003 - 01:34 AM

Sky lark : C++ is C with extra functionality, they aren't completely different. thats why you can compile C programs with a C++ compiler.

C++ is based off of C. The only difference is that in C you have functions and in C++ you have Objects. Objects double also as functions. so an Object is just a function with extra functionality...

Why the hell would they call it C++ if it wasn't based off of C?

"C" (the programming language) + "++" (New and improved!) = "C++" (The New and improved Programming language)
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#10 User is offline   RoSS 

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Post icon  Posted 18 September 2003 - 03:58 AM

C++ means C = C + 1, basicly, not "New and improved C" =P
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#11 User is offline   Exophase 

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Posted 18 September 2003 - 04:19 AM

Koji, on Sep 17 2003, 08:34 PM, said:

Sky lark : C++ is C with extra functionality, they aren't completely different. thats why you can compile C programs with a C++ compiler.

C++ is based off of C. The only difference is that in C you have functions and in C++ you have Objects. Objects double also as functions. so an Object is just a function with extra functionality...

Why the hell would they call it C++ if it wasn't based off of C?

"C" (the programming language) + "++" (New and improved!) = "C++" (The New and improved Programming language)

Koji, what did I tell you about talking about things you clearly have little to no knowledge about? You are so far off base about C++ that it's hard to even feel sorry for your blinding ignorance. Contrary to what some people think, C++ cannot be described as C with some new features. Furthermore objects have nothing to do with functions. I feel stupider for even having read that. Now I'm going to explain precisely what C and C++ are.

C is a procedural programming language written in the 1970's. At the time assembly language programming was the norm for serious programming, while high level languages were too bulky and slow. C was made pretty specifically for PDP machines as a pretty middle of the road solution. The main reason C was written was to facilitate in the writing of Unix, which of course was a quite large and ambitious operating system and needed a language that was both fast and powerful while being more managable than assembly. Because of this C and Unix are closely related historically, and even to this day C is often preferred in *nixes. C was THE mainstream language for a very long time, much to the chagrin to those who think it's an inferior language (many find it too low level. In fact, some have even called it "portable assembler." I personally think it's much more than that). C received it's first ANSI standardizations in 1989, and since then most compilers worth anything have complied to this. New standards were ratified in 1999, which enhance the language in many ways. Unfortunately few vendors have adopted these new features in full (or even at all in some cases).

C++ is largely a reaction to the growing popularity of OOP theory in the early 1980's. Although C++'s creator claims that C++ is useful for any programming paradigm, it is clearly aimed at OOP (object oriented programming, which has its roots in procedural programming). It is true that C++ is a mostly complete superset of C, meaning that everything in C is present in C++. Furthermore, C++'s unique features are added in a way that makes them coherent with C's syntax (unlike Objective C, which basically meshes C and Smalltalk together.. and these are two very different languages). However, C++ isn't merely an extension to C, nor is it something that C programmers have a particularly easy time moving to while utilizing well (some people vastly underutilize C++ though. Like Greg Janson with MZX. They'd be better off using pure C). Programming correctly in C++ is actually a lot different than programming in C, even though it does utilize fundamental structures of C. C++ received an ISO standardization in 1998, I believe. Because it was received so late, and because many things aren't standardized at all (name mangling, several rules for templates), C++ remains heavily unstandardized. Thus it's much harder to write portable C++ code.

And in an attempt to undo some of the damage Koji's done, I'll try to describe what an object is vs. what a function is. A function in the C sense is actually a combination of a function in the mathematical sense and a procedure. A mathematical function takes a certain number of inputs, and returns a precise output (so each set of inputs has only one output). For instance, the square root function would return the square root of its input. Procredures are more important in computer science terms; they "do" something. For instance you might have a function that prints to the screen; this is regarded as a pure procedure because only its "side effect" (what it does within the duration of its run) is important, not what it returns.

Basically, an object is a collection of functions (in this case, called methods) and data that describe an object in the sense we would think of one, as a concrete and self contained functional unit. An object is expected to have sole access to its own data, and provide methods so that the outside world can interact with it and tell it what to do. Think of a black box kind of machine. Objects also have important organizational and reuse benefits. You may "inheret" classes (a class is what defines an object) from a base class, adding functionality to it, or changing existing functionality, while still allowing the object to be an instantiation of its parent class (and thus substitutable). This makes a lot of types of code easier to write and expand in the long run, but be warned. OOP isn't good for everything, despite what many say. There is sharp criticism for it used in many areas.. for instance embedded software and emulators.

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#12 User is offline   Dr Lancer-X 

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Posted 18 September 2003 - 05:18 AM

An object is kinda like a combination of a structure and a set of functions.

All the functions in the object can access the object's member variables... but it can also be used purely to store things, like a structure in C.

The functions in an object are usually always related to each other... if a function is standalone, it is usually either declared as a global function or as a member of an object that is used to hold these kinds of functions..

Er.. sorry I don't really know much about C++, as I rarely code in it.

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#13 User is offline   Koji 

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Posted 18 September 2003 - 11:54 AM

Yeah, Function with more functionality.

I'm sorry, Exophase, I didn't know the whole history of C/C++ but I must say you are VERY quick to respond rashly. I only said "more features" when I was trying to compare C/C++ with mzx 2.51/mzx 2.69c (I only did so to simplify the idea to joe). I didn't mean it to actually imply that C++ is only different in that has some more functions that it can preform.

I'm really getting sick of you and everyone else who seems to hate for the sake of hating, especially mordac.
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#14 User is offline   Wervyn 

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Posted 18 September 2003 - 02:46 PM

I think the reason Exo responded so "rashly" is that your explanation basically says of you, "I don't really know what I'm talking about, but I'll pretend I do so that people will respect me." Exo really hates it when people pretend to have knowledge about something that they really don't have. Come to think of it, it really bothers me too. And even now, I find it kind of funny, I find it kind of sad, that you're still trying to hold onto this bizarre assertion that "Objects are super-functions!" That was the thing that caused me to initially say to Exo, "hey look, Koji's making an idiot of himself again," and Exo to respond, "wow, just...wow."
The point being that Objects really aren't anything like functions at all. It's more reasonable to compare an Object to an int, than a function; your blunder demonstrates a fundamental misunderstanding of the way C/C++ programming works. What's far more disturbing about this is that you purportedly did some work on the MZX codebase. So I think it really CAN be said that I feel stupider for having read that in the first place.

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Posted 18 September 2003 - 03:12 PM

Is a C++ object like a QBasic SUB?


Why-Fi: but I'M MATURE ENOUGH TO BE A MODERATOR!!!!!!!!!!
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#16 User is offline   Koji 

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Posted 18 September 2003 - 03:15 PM

First mzx is primarily coded in C even though it's in C++ files. Second, I don't claim to know more than I do, I said that in my earlier post. I don't beg for respect. I haven't contributed much to the community sure I "purportedly did some work on the MZX codebase" but I also know that Exophase had to recode most of what I did. I'm not claiming that I know much about C++. I'm only saying what I've heard, and fom what I've heard:

When you make a C funtion in C++ it is refered to as an object.

And being an object, is has different properties/functionalities ("more functionality").

Thats all I meant.

I also said "I know someones going to elaborate on this better than I probably could so, I'll just leave it at that. Ask Exo/lancer/anyone else who programs with C/C++." in my first post.

I admitted that I didn't know much about C/C++. I know enough to get around in C okay, but not profesionally...

Only after skylark basically said that C and C++ are two totally different programming systems that look similar. Did I post again.

I mean come on. C++ is based off of C. It's a freak'n superscript. I'm suprized people are taking time to FLAME the shit out of me for something so trivial.

Really though, I hate this crap I get dished out whenever I say (litterally)anything. Hate for the sake of hate.
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#17 User is offline   Wervyn 

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Posted 18 September 2003 - 03:46 PM

Quote

Is a C++ object like a QBasic SUB?

Not even remotely. A QBasic SUB is like a C/C++ function. I'm not sure if there's really a good analog in QBasic for a C++ Object. But we can see the damage Koji is doing is already taking effect.

Quote

When you make a C funtion in C++ it is refered to as an object.

No. It's not. When you make a function in C++ it is refered to as a function. When an Object encapsulates a particular function, I believe you refer to that function as a procedure, although I may be getting my terminology crossed. An Object is NOT a function. An Object is a specific instance of a class, which is an encapsulation of a set of related data and procedures to manipulate that data. Again, an Object is NOT the same thing as a function. It has far more in common with a C struct.

"*doesnt know to much about C++*"
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#18 User is offline   Koji 

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Posted 18 September 2003 - 05:49 PM

"I'm only saying what I've heard"

My Elder Brother who is taking a C++ programming class was told by his teacher that C functions if placed in a C++ compiler are refered to as objects. Sorry for the confusion.
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#19 User is offline   joepsycho 

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Posted 18 September 2003 - 06:45 PM

so C++ is C with extra functions?
i think i'm beginning to understand
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#20 User is offline   Pyro1588 

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Posted 18 September 2003 - 07:54 PM

wait, why was lancer an admin for one post, but not for the next one? doesn't admin reflect your current status instead of your status when you made that post?
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#21 User is offline   Kuddy 

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Posted 18 September 2003 - 08:03 PM

Pyro1588, on Sep 18 2003, 03:54 PM, said:

wait, why was lancer an admin for one post, but not for the next one? doesn't admin reflect your current status instead of your status when you made that post?

:cry:
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#22 User is offline   Dr Lancer-X 

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Posted 18 September 2003 - 10:37 PM

Koji, on Sep 18 2003, 05:49 PM, said:

"I'm only saying what I've heard"

My Elder Brother who is taking a C++ programming class was told by his teacher that C functions if placed in a C++ compiler are refered to as objects. Sorry for the confusion.

Heh, no. No no no no no. No.

Functions in C are functions in C++.

Objects are not functions, nor variables.

They simple house functions and variables, and link them together.

Kapische?

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#23 User is offline   Skylark 

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Posted 18 September 2003 - 10:40 PM

Koji, on Sep 19 2003, 12:45 AM, said:

Only after skylark basically said that C and C++ are two totally different programming systems that look similar. Did I post again.

I'm pretty sure that what I said was that they are based off different ideas... Oh wait, that is what I said!

Don't flame me just because you put your foot in your mouth and are now choking on it.

EDIT: I spelt 'foot' as 'fut'. :cry:

This post has been edited by Skylark: 18 September 2003 - 10:41 PM

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#24 User is offline   Exophase 

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Posted 19 September 2003 - 12:52 AM

Koji, on Sep 18 2003, 06:54 AM, said:

I'm really getting sick of you and everyone else who seems to hate for the sake of hating, especially mordac.

Yeah, well until you realize we're annoyed at you because of how you behave and not because we just arbitrarily feel like being annoying, you're never going to change.

And at this rate, things will only get worse. If you don't stop acting the way you do and then playing the victim role when someone confronts you about it, you're not going to be accepted here much longer.

BTW, when someone asks for information, don't tell them what you haphazardly heard (and I think you're lying, because no C++ teacher in the world would compare functions and objects). If you don't know FIRSTHAND a single thing about what's being said, don't talk about it. Period. Stop excusing and rationalizing all of your posts. There's no excuse for this kind of behavior. It's exactly like Artith always behaved. I guess I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you AREN'T Artith, but you've sure inherited his behavior. Maybe if you could actually realize this instead of moaning and saying that everyone hates you for no reason, people would start treating you differently.

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#25 User is offline   mordac 

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Posted 19 September 2003 - 01:12 AM

Wervyn, on Sep 18 2003, 10:46 AM, said:

I find it kind of funny, I find it kind of sad

I was going to reply to this with "The dreams in which I'm dying are the best I've ever had," BUT THEN I SAW YOU DID IT AT THE END OF THE POST AND YOU CRUSHED MY DREAMS. WAY TO RUIN MY JOKE, WERV. Cripes. And I was all excited about it, too. :(
(T4F 4EVAR)


Also, Koji: cry me a river. I don't go around being annoyed at people just because I feel like it. That would be retarded. You annoy me because you're annoying. And it's not just me. I don't know why you can't just accept that and move on. It's not a big deal. And stuff.
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#26 User is offline   Dr Lancer-X 

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Posted 19 September 2003 - 02:38 AM

Pfft. Someone like me would never make a post like that, about something he doesn't undestand after all. ;D

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#27 User is offline   Koji 

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Posted 19 September 2003 - 05:00 AM

Sky lark : I wasn't flaming you. Sorry if it seemed that way.

Lancer : Gottchya. I wish others would treat a misconception more like you do, cause it'd save a lot of people a lot of grief.

Exophase : No one knows anything first hand except the person who came up with the knowledge in the first place. Knowledge is knowledge you can't really experience it. It must be taught. And I explained that I was only saying what I've heard, I never said I knew for a fact.

Modac/Exophase : Forget it already. So you think I'm annoying, get over yourselves. I'm finding you annoying too, we're even okay? ^^

I hate to be a part of a flame war so I'll no longer be a part of this one, meaning, rant and rave all you want, because I'm not listening anymore.
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#28 User is offline   Exophase 

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Posted 19 September 2003 - 06:12 AM

Artith1 said:

Exo : I will talk when I want where I want regardless of what you may tell me. Oh BTW, why is it that you always take the initiative to insult me/ badger me/ be a total ass hole for no reason? I'm beginning to get tired of it. You constantly battle with me often for reasons that aren't clear to many except you.


That's all I have to say about that. Benefit of the doubt nothing.

BTW, enjoy your new warning level, Artith.

- Exo
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"The fact that I say I've one of the best, is called honesty." -Akwende
"Megazeux is not ment to be just ASCII, it is ANSI!" - T-bone6
"I hate it when you get all exo on me." - emalkay

Exophase can what Rubi-cant.
exoware is ware ur ware is exoware
ps. not loking 4 new membrs kthx
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#29 User is offline   Koji 

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Posted 19 September 2003 - 06:02 PM

Whatever Exophase, I don't care what you think of me anymore. Assume I'm Artith. Have fun with the notion.
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#30 User is offline   Mr. Apol 

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Posted 19 September 2003 - 06:10 PM

HEY WHAT ABOUT ZZTOOP? IS THAT A LOT LIKE C++. THEY BOTH HAVE OBJECTS! LOLOL. I LIKE ROBOTS BETTER THOUGH.

Heh. I love hearing people talk about programming languages. I can sit and nod my head and pretend to know what they're talking about!
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