[LogiCow]

1) doz games being numbers
Now I know this has some organization purposes but I like my game having an awesome name and not just "game number 457323"

It wouldn't be as bad if you could tack on a name after the game number or something. Or just get rid of the numbers altogether. There's no point for them, they are an awkward artifact of the anonymity rule.



2) good DoZ topics should work with any kind of game, without using a tacked-on plot. I don't want to make a horror game just because the topic is paranoia. I hate horror games.
Also, tacked-on plots suck.
Hint: you know the topics are bad when there's only like one SNES game ever that would fit either.
Don't get me started on that whole mess of a "DS DOZ 2008 AND THE END OF THE WORLD" one, which was a complete joke.

How about real, video game related stuff, like dinosaurs, ninjas, space, swords, dragons and whatnot, instead of this vague intangible stuff. How often do you see news reporters in mainstream video games? Just about never. How often do you see ninjas and swords? All the time, man. All the time. Because they are cool topics.

You can have one fancy weird topic, I'm cool with that. But not two. Please. Remember: the original point of topics was to be a cheat prevention system. Not to redefine what game you can make altogether.



3) Good games don't need any kind of plot whatsoever. 90% of the flash games you see online don't have any. DoZ scoresheets basically force you to put a stupid tacked-on plot as an after-thought once you made a game. I hate tacked-on plots, and I'm not bothering with them anymore. Some games have good storylines, and I respect that. But there's a sizable amount of games out there with zero storyline.

Sometimes, a game just works better without a plot.


4) DoZ rules pretty much prevent anyone from making small bug fixes that take 5 minutes, and as such all bugs must remain in the games at all costs. With the way DoZs work right now, the best way to go is to do as much as possible and _hope_ there isn't any bugs in the game, which is why so many DoZ games are so full of game breaking bugs. With the way the contest works, you're better off with a big fancy game with bugs, rather than a small, but completely stable game that plays from start to finish.

I think we should give a respectable time period for people to weed them out, or at least get some contest mechanic for them. Some of the DoZ games out there would be twice as enjoyable with simple bug fixes that don't even take 10 minutes to do. It's sad, really.

In the real world, bug exists, and people can fix them. Some can take time before they are found, or they only occur because someone's doing something differently from the original game programmer. Commercial games have bugs and bug fixes in them all the time.



5) People think that my game sucks because it doesn't work well for them. That's like saying Ferrari cars suck because they can't afford them. If you can't play it, then don't say it sucks, because you haven't played it the way it was meant to be, and as such you're missing and ignoring so much of its potential value.

Now of course, the overwhelming majority of MZX games run great on low-end hardware. People got used to that, so much that if a MZX game slows down on their computer, then something is terribly wrong with it.

Let me tell you a sad fact: there is a HUGE gap between cheap AMD/Intel dual cores, and high-end ones. It makes a very large, and very real difference in terms of what you can do. It is part of the PC gaming industry and people have learned to deal with it.

I've had "casual" flash games slow down to a crawl on my Core 2 2ghz laptop, yet nobody bitched about it.


I've probably alienated the ten or so people who might otherwise have played my game. Pretty meaningless, if you ask me.


6) The term "Engine game" is dumb, because it's specific to MZX, and from what I understand it basically means that the engine is an overwhelmingly significant part of the game.
But no, I only spent a few hours on the engine, and most of the time has been spent balancing weapons and gameplay, and making game content.
Of course people wouldn't know because they haven't played the game. But then don't comment about it, geez.



7) Let's be honest there: first impressions are very important and I can see how people can dislike my game. That's okay. But please, don't call it a complete failure. You didn't like it, fine. But maybe others will. The MZX community is very niche-y, with very specific tastes.

Lots of people enjoyed my videos on youtube, of me playing through DoZ games. Maybe you'd enjoy this one better like that, too. No framerate issues, no difficulty issues, no control issues, and the resolution might actually look okay after going through video compression. A very different experience, yet in essence it's still the same game being played.



8) People talk like I actually owe them games, and that I should make games specifically to suit their tastes. Well guess what: a very large reason why I like making games is because I learn things while doing it.
I wouldn't learn anything by making the same basic games over and over again. I have learned some valuable lessons while making this game, which I wouldn't have otherwise. This is also part of the reason why I push myself hard with these complicated engines. In that sense, this DoZ has been a great success for me. It might not be the best way to get the best DoZ score, but at that point I don't care about that anymore. I enjoyed making the game, so I win. I've reached a point where the DoZ is basically just a motivation boost for me to get up and try something new.

But, as time goes on I'm getting more and more unhelpfully restrained by the topics, rules and strict time management that I might not bother anymore.



9) Forums and IRC don't match, but I've found that #mzx has so much useless garbage that I don't think I'll bother there anymore either. From people spamming complete nonsense to Kuddy being an idiot. It was tolerable at first, but I give up. There's a bunch of people there whom I still enjoy talking to, but it's not worth it. I'm not going to argue about it here though.



10) I'm fed up with elitist jerks always putting snide comments whenever they can. Seriously.



11) I never read text in DoZ games. Maybe I don't have enough of an attention span, or maybe I don't have enough imagination to see things going on in my head.
Oh wait, it's not just me. There's a reason why "tldr" is such a popular expression.

I haven't played a single modern console game that had any significant amount of storyline text on the screen at any given time. Most of the time it's just cut scenes with people saying one-liners. Mass Effect, for instance, was storyline-heavy, and I loved every second of it. Old squaresoft RPGs are fine, because anything being discussed is either graphically happening on the screen, or they read like the simple english wikipedia. There is never any huge static block of storyline text with nothing happening onscreen.

While games have these huge, complex back stories, they're only given one trickle at a time, and backed up with animation.

Books are okay because not only do they not have to compete against gameplay for your attention, they also have decent spacing with paragraph blocks, dialogues and easy to read fonts. Among other things.


But DoZ games don't do that. DoZ games, and MZX games in general have this habit of coming up with huge blocks of text, with insufficient visual aid. It's very odd. It's something which I can understand, but it IS specific to MZX and something I don't like, at all.



I've got more stuff to talk about but this'll do for now.

[Wervyn]

LogiCow, on Jun 30 2009, 06:48 AM, said:

massive wall of text complaining about how unfair it is
...
Oh wait, it's not just me. There's a reason why "tldr" is such a popular expression.

This is called irony.

Go cry about it. I'm sorry you have no imagination but almost everyone else not only liked Paranoia as a topic, but did excellent things with it--to the point that I wonder why a couple of games didn't use the Heavy sheet. This was an EASY theme to use. You just didn't want to try.

"I want a rule that says I win all the time."

[LogiCow]

Wervyn, on Jun 30 2009, 06:53 AM, said:

This is called irony.

Go cry about it. I'm sorry you have no imagination but almost everyone else not only liked Paranoia as a topic, but did excellent things with it--to the point that I wonder why a couple of games didn't use the Heavy sheet. This was an EASY theme to use. You just didn't want to try.

"I want a rule that says I win all the time."

10) I'm fed up with elitist jerks always putting snide comments whenever they can. Seriously.

[Dr Lancer-X]

[Wervyn]

That's also pretty ironic coming from someone with such a "my way or the FUCK OFF" attitude. I mean how do you think _I_ feel being called names and bitched at after doing my damned best to put together a competition that, for the most part, all participants thoroughly enjoyed, except for the vocal minority of one who after years of being called out for not playing nice with others STILL throws a tantrum when he doesn't get everything his way?

"When I became a man I put away childish things."

[astral]

This just in, challenging game development competition is challenging. A plot is only tacked on because you tack it on and refuse to integrate it into your game development cycle. Two sentences could've tied a game to either of the topics and you still would've had a lot of freedom to go on and develop pretty much any kind of game you wanted. You want an example? A sudoku-based game about a news reporter investigating the seedy underworld of black market puzzle competition. An incredibly disturbed paranoid man goes on a rampage in downtown Cincinnati. Two whole DoZ games right there in two sentences, and you couldn't be bothered to come up with even one. You're lashing out at other people because of your creative shortcomings, so fuck your rant, it's disrespectful to the people who actually put that effort into their DoZ games.

You want more time to fix bugs? Reign in the design concept so you have time to test everything properly. Two working weapons are better than ten. Three challenging enemies are better than thirty marching shrubs. So again, fuck your rant, it's a disgrace and devalues the people who had a design they could test and perfect in the appropriate time frame. You want to complain about people being snide and nasty? Get out of game design. Have you read some of the more scathing reviews of titles people spent years developing? You're bitching because people are persnickety about something you worked hard on for one day. If you can't take the punches, don't put your jaw out there, slick. I haven't seen anybody say anything about you owing them a game that suits their tastes, so I think you're just trying to pull something out of your ass to justify the recoil.

OH I TRY SO HARD AND IT'S JUST NEVER ENOUGH.

If the development of the engine/game really satisfied you completely and you didn't care about the DoZ, you wouldn't be on the forums bitching about how it's slanted against you because you're lazy and uncreative. Don't write two pages and then lie to everybody's face about the intent, it's smarmy. And here we go, heading into the end of the list now, you don't like people making elitist snide comments but you're going to tell everyone on the forums that the people on IRC are idiots. Fuck you, hypocrite. If you don't like the channel, don't go there, but don't bring it up on the forums like someone gives a shit that you have thin skin and then act like you weren't just bringing it up just to be a snide fuck in your own right. Nobody cares if you go to #mzx, stop thinking they do.

And, 11, 11 might as well read "11.) I don't actually play the games as they're designed. I just skim and rant on the forums about how nobody plays my game in the correct light immediately after not playing other games as they're intended."

You need a helmet. Sheesh, the nerve of some people.

[mzxgiant]

LogiCow, on Jun 30 2009, 05:48 AM, said:

1) doz games being numbers
Now I know this has some organization purposes but I like my game having an awesome name and not just "game number 457323"

It wouldn't be as bad if you could tack on a name after the game number or something. Or just get rid of the numbers altogether. There's no point for them, they are an awkward artifact of the anonymity rule.

I may be recalling this incorrectly, but your assumption with this statement is that anonymity is banned; some people like to keep their games private and not sign "I R MZXGIANT I ROTE THIS GMAE" all over it. While there's something to be said for 'credit where credit is due', anonymity is still an option. Despite the idea that team numbers may seem inconvenient, it's a good way for those who want it to preserve it, and those who don't will throw their names on the title screen anyways.

"I'm MZXGiant, and I approve this message ::wink and thumbs up::"

[GetDizzy]

Quote

I haven't played a single modern console game that had any significant amount of storyline text on the screen at any given time.

MZX Games should be compared to PC games, not console games.

Given that, this list includes both.

The Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind
The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion
Neverwinter Nights 2
Final Fantasy XI
Final Fantasy XII
Final Fantasy XII: Revenant Wings
Star Ocean: Till the End of Time
Star Ocean: The Last Hope
Mass Effect
World of Warcraft
Guild Wars
EVE Online
Das Schwarze Auge: Drakensang
Sacred 2
The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess
Time Leap
11eyes Crossover
CHAOS;HEAD NOAH
Amagami
Never7
Ever17
Remember11
12Riven
Animal Crossing: City Folk
Animal Crossing: Wild World
Innocent Life: A Futuristic Harvest Moon
Harvest Moon: Tree of Tranquility
Harvest Moon: Animal Parade
Pokemon Diamond
Pokemon Pearl
Pokemon Platinum
Pokemon XD: Gale of Darkness
Pokemon: Mystery Dungeon: Blazing
Pokemon: Mystery Dungeon: Stormy
Pokemon: Mystery Dungeon: Light


... I think I've made my point.

[Maxim]

Aw, come on, Logi Cow. I bitched quite a lot about the topics in the last DOZ. That had to do with the scoresheet I wanted to use being connected to an EXTREMELY weak topic. You used it far better than I did--I was impressed anyone used it so well.

And then you, this time, are unable to make use of a great topic like PARANOIA?! Come on, Logi

[KKairos]

RE: Processors. Know your audience. Many of the people who will play your game (including myself, who was selected to be a judge!) don't run gaming-level PCs. My PC can make it through a Source engine game (in this case I'm thinking Portal) with the textures on low. You talk about the industry standard at large? Well guess what, you get to adapt to the standards the MZX community is used to when you're making MZX games. That said, I actually did my damnedest to score your game's gameplay charitably even though it ran like crap on my hardware!

You're welcome!

P.S.

Judging is something I will never take for granted again after this week!

[barbarian]

was there a doz on or something?

[Dr Lancer-X]

barbarian, on Jul 1 2009, 02:29 AM, said:

was there a doz on or something?

dunno, maybe

[Lachesis]

1) There's not much point in getting rid of numbers (prevents other people from submitting crap in your name, unless you're Koji), but I'd LOVE it if people'd start puting their names somewhere on their games.

2) "The President has been kidnapped by ninjas. Are you a bad enough dude to save the President?"
Honestly, is it that hard to come up with a plot this big that adheres to a topic like paranoia? That's part of the point of a Day of Zeux. Watch

"The President has been kidnapped by conspiracy theorist news reporters. Are you a bad enough dude to save the President?"

Not that hard!

3) Yeah, but this isn't a flash game contest...

4) grace period

5) bawwww, call the waaaaambulance

6) refer to lancer's first post

8) missing the point of the DoZ

10)

11) oh irony

This post has been edited by Kokuchou: 30 June 2009 - 05:23 PM

[Risu2112]

The totalitarian grip over DoZ topics has been unwilling to do anything but move in the direction of 24 a hour story writing/sandboxing competition anyway. Frankly Logicow by completely ignoring them is elevated to the status of some sort of renegade folk hero.

Average fun factor from this competition was quite low.

[commodorejohn]

Lancer wins the discussion. Also, nobody played your game because it didn't run at a playable speed on anything under 2GHz. IN MZX. You should get a special mention just for the profound wrongness of that.

That said, I kind of agree about the themes. Paranoia wasn't actually that bad, but there has been kind of a general trend for the abstract topic to be too vague and the concrete topic to be too restrictive.

[LogiCow]

The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion
http://www.pibweb.co...blivion_emp.jpg
Okay so that's what, two lines of text, taking about 10% of the screen's real estate? Plus, voice acting to back it up.

Final Fantasy XI
Are you kidding me? This game has three hours of grind for every line of dialog you get.

Mass Effect
http://gallery.techa...fect-Images.jpg
Okay so that's one line of text, plus fully animated with voice acting.

World of Warcraft
Quest descriptions have blocks of text but they always include a brief summary with key points so that you can skip the fluff. You don't play WoW for the quest dialogues, do you?

Guild Wars
By Balthasard's Beard! Rin Burns! (plus, animated with voice acting)

Animal Crossing: Wild World
It has some dialogues, in size 34 fonts, of people wishing you a good day. Not exactly text-heavy. Quite the opposite.

Pokemon
With the exception of the introduction dialogue, which is long and tedious, dialogues are small gossip like "oh my isn't it beautiful today".

[LogiCow]

astral, on Jun 30 2009, 08:14 AM, said:

This just in, challenging game development competition is challenging.

Challenging, but for no good reason. It makes games suck more.

astral, on Jun 30 2009, 08:14 AM, said:

A plot is only tacked on because you tack it on and refuse to integrate it into your game development cycle.

That is correct. I am tired of bullshit plots tacked on to games.

astral, on Jun 30 2009, 08:14 AM, said:

You want more time to fix bugs? Reign in the design concept so you have time to test everything properly. Two working weapons are better than ten. Three challenging enemies are better than thirty marching shrubs.

Yeah that's the theory, but it doesn't match with real world scenarios.

astral, on Jun 30 2009, 08:14 AM, said:

So again, fuck your rant, it's a disgrace and devalues the people who had a design they could test and perfect in the appropriate time frame.

While the current rules do make a flawless game impressive, it also introduces lots of unnecessary pressure, so lots of people who would have been tempted to enter the DoZ are scared off. Plus, having to edit most games to play through them is a huge disappointment.

astral, on Jun 30 2009, 08:14 AM, said:

You want to complain about people being snide and nasty? Get out of game design. Have you read some of the more scathing reviews of titles people spent years developing?

There's a world of difference between indie games and commercial games. Flash game communities for instance are more open minded and don't bitch at each other for no reason.

astral, on Jun 30 2009, 08:14 AM, said:

You're bitching because people are persnickety about something you worked hard on for one day. If you can't take the punches, don't put your jaw out there, slick. I haven't seen anybody say anything about you owing them a game that suits their tastes, so I think you're just trying to pull something out of your ass to justify the recoil.

I can take valid complaints fine but what I've seen so far is not what I'd call constructive criticism.

astral, on Jun 30 2009, 08:14 AM, said:

If the development of the engine/game really satisfied you completely and you didn't care about the DoZ, you wouldn't be on the forums bitching about how it's slanted against you

Analogy: I guess Americans shouldn't complain about world poverty and war because they aren't directly subjected to it. Anyhow I am bringing up constructive criticism on how I think we could improve the DoZ.

astral, on Jun 30 2009, 08:14 AM, said:

Don't write two pages and then lie to everybody's face about the intent, it's smarmy. And here we go, heading into the end of the list now, you don't like people making elitist snide comments but you're going to tell everyone on the forums that the people on IRC are idiots.If you don't like the channel, don't go there, but don't bring it up on the forums like someone gives a shit that you have thin skin and then act like you weren't just bringing it up just to be a snide fuck in your own right. Nobody cares if you go to #mzx, stop thinking they do.

That doesn't make any of your elitist snide comments any more acceptable. And I said I wouldn't argue about #mzx.

astral, on Jun 30 2009, 08:14 AM, said:

And, 11, 11 might as well read "11.) I don't actually play the games as they're designed.

So of course I tell everyone that those game suck, right?

astral, on Jun 30 2009, 08:14 AM, said:

I just skim and rant on the forums about how nobody plays my game in the correct light immediately

yes pretty much

astral, on Jun 30 2009, 08:14 AM, said:

after not playing other games as they're intended."

Do you have any complaint about how I play other people's games? I guess I have to do everything the elitist MZXer way now.

astral, on Jun 30 2009, 08:14 AM, said:

Sheesh, the nerve of some people.

Yeah.

astral, on Jun 30 2009, 08:14 AM, said:

because you're lazy and uncreative.

astral, on Jun 30 2009, 08:14 AM, said:

Fuck you, hypocrite.

This is why we can't have nice things.





What I'm seeing here, is the older MZXer clique jumping on me and being defensive because they think all MZX games should resemble each other, with blocky, low framerate movement and tedious dialogues.

Only a slight fraction of all amateur video games even have plots or dialogues. The MZX community lives in an alternate dimension where the plot is almighty and every game needs one.


Furthermore, the gaming world evolved past your standard graphics/sound/etc scoresheet, and no game is seen as the sum of it's parts anymore. The double score sheets mechanics are archaic, and are only a band-aid fix for the lack of theme in games that have tacked-on plots.

This post has been edited by LogiCow: 30 June 2009 - 10:36 PM

[Exophase]

Logicow, you complain about the same thing every time, few people agree or care, and now you're announcing that you're just going to ignore the DoZ requirements. Uh, okay, enjoy not qualifying ever again, I guess.

I see you're disappointed in how the DoZ's work, but I'm disappointed that this time you did a shitty game. What are you going to do about it? Aside from refusing to take blame for it like you always do when things don't work out as well in your favor as you'd like. I don't know why you care so much about the scores anyway, it's not like you haven't won your fair share of DoZ games anyway. With games actually worth playing.

So the bullet point responses are something like this:
- Like said already, not everyone wants to give up anon. Other than that, numbers make it much easier to track submissions, so it's worth bearing with the slight inconvenience it causes.
- Nobody this DoZ did a horror game, disproving anything you have to say about that being the only choice for the "paranoia" topic.
- Virtually every console game made past (and largely during) the SNES era has some amount of in-game presented plot. Old NES games tend to lack plot more because of lack of cartridge space than lack of interest and even they usually at least threw a few sentences at you for an intro and/or ending. What you like to consider tacked on is beyond industry standard, so I think your opinions are in the tiny minority.
- Good games don't need good graphics or music or even arguably gameplay either, never seen you bitch about those categories. Probably because you realize that good games are better with good graphics, music, and gameplay, which is how most of us feel about plot.
- For several DoZ's now contestants have been allowed to submit information on how to fix their games, publicly - then the judges can apply it and decide how much should be held against them for it. Letting the contestants submit patches directly would be much more difficult to screen and I'm certain that some idiot (probably you) would abuse it with some off the wall concept of what's reasonable.
- People think your game sucks because it sucks. It has shitty controls, bad graphics, just about no level design, no clear presentation of what you're supposed to do.. really I think rendering speed is the least of your problems. But if it makes you feel better to have something external to blame it on. I asked Wervyn what computer he's using and he said "fast enough", maybe something that feels sufficiently fast for him isn't so for you? But expecting people to have high end machines to judge your game is retarded and you should know better than this. Are you sure nobody bitched about those "casual flash games"? Would they bitch if it was their responsibility to judge it? I think so!
- Okay, this "engine game" shit is just a response to Wervyn. We're not Wervyn. Why don't you send him a PM, or post in that thread at least.
- Who talks about you owing them games? Piss off. Also lolz at you not learning by making the same games over and over again. Most of the DoZ games you've done are highly similar to things you've done before.

So I guess I'm kinda wondering, are you posting this because you want change or are you posting this because you think people care that you're pissed with everything, even though it's just rubbing against your personal preferences again? Serious question, wants serious answer.

[Risu2112]

LogiCow, on Jun 30 2009, 03:21 PM, said:

While the current rules do make a flawless game impressive, it also introduces lots of unnecessary pressure, so lots of people who would have been tempted to enter the DoZ are scared off.

This is generally why I don't compete, The entire reason I enjoy working in megazeux is because I find it exciting to accomplish something when forced to adhere to some strict limitations. Having a pair of broad and/or vague topics only serves to overwhelm me with lack of direction. That said, I don't feel the need to deny other DoZ'ers what they want by taking both topics away from them. It's just disappointing that they seem to feel the need to do it to the people like us.

[LogiCow]

Exophase, on Jun 30 2009, 06:03 PM, said:

So I guess I'm kinda wondering, are you posting this because you want change or are you posting this because you think people care that you're pissed with everything, even though it's just rubbing against your personal preferences again? Serious question, wants serious answer.

On the topic of topics (heh), I want change. More specifically, I want one of the topics to be a good topic for an action video game, without the need for a tacked-on plot.

Also to vent off steam.

Also to justify my DoZ game.

Also to see your reactions, to know if it's positive, or negative, constructive or just derogatory.
To see if it's worth sticking around. Lancer's response, and general responses so far have been such that I could leave and never come back, and feel good about it.

[astral]

LogiCow, on Jun 30 2009, 05:21 PM, said:

Challenging, but for no good reason. It makes games suck more.

Then by this logic, the contest shouldn't limit you to a Day of Zeux. In which case, it wouldn't be called the Day of Zeux. In which case, there wouldn't be a contest for you to fail at. You're seeing it in your little bubble, you get upset because the rules work against your idea of game design, and can't understand that everybody's in the same boat to make the contest a challenge.

LogiCow, on Jun 30 2009, 05:21 PM, said:

That is correct. I am tired of bullshit plots tacked on to games.

Go re-read what I said and try to understand it this time. Nobody's trying to tell you to write fifteen pages of back story. As I demonstrated in the paragraph (guess you skimmed that too) you could've tied your game, no matter what type, to the theme very easily, in as little as two sentences that don't even have to be force-fed down the players' throats.

LogiCow, on Jun 30 2009, 05:21 PM, said:

Yeah that's the theory, but it doesn't match with real world scenarios.

Really? Ideal situations don't match real world ones? Holy crap, news to me. Nobody can be absolutely perfect, but ignoring the base principle here because it's not 100% attainable is ridiculous and counter-productive. You must (have) work(ed) for 3D Realms.

LogiCow, on Jun 30 2009, 05:21 PM, said:

While the current rules do make a flawless game impressive, it also introduces lots of unnecessary pressure, so lots of people who would have been tempted to enter the DoZ are scared off. Plus, having to edit most games to play through them is a huge disappointment.

While the competition creates a competition that lionizes the games that espouse the values of a complete game, it also introduces features of the competition that I don't agree with, and people who don't like the type of competition this is won't be entering this competition. Plus, having a lot of people board the failboat like me sucks.

LogiCow, on Jun 30 2009, 05:21 PM, said:

There's a world of difference between indie games and commercial games. Flash game communities for instance are more open minded and don't bitch at each other for no reason.

Did I say commercial? Not everybody in the world likes Cave Story or Seiklus. Also, nobody's bitching at you for no reason, they're bitching at you for complaining you can't win after ignoring half the scoresheet.

LogiCow, on Jun 30 2009, 05:21 PM, said:

I can take valid complaints fine but what I've seen so far is not what I'd call constructive criticism.

Not true, people were nice to you the first ten times you decided you didn't have to follow the competition rules and you didn't learn a thing. Now they're being snarky and mean, and all you can do is whine about it.

LogiCow, on Jun 30 2009, 05:21 PM, said:

Analogy: I guess Americans shouldn't complain about world poverty and war because they aren't directly subjected to it. Anyhow I am bringing up constructive criticism on how I think we could improve the DoZ.

Hi, I'm Logicow, I want to make it seem like the reason I'm complaining isn't because I'm facing problems with my submission and people are making fun of me for it, so here's an analogy that demonizes astral's point so I can ignore the issue at hand.

LogiCow, on Jun 30 2009, 05:21 PM, said:

That doesn't make any of your elitist snide comments any more acceptable. And I said I wouldn't argue about #mzx.

I'm not elitist, just right.

LogiCow, on Jun 30 2009, 05:21 PM, said:

So of course I tell everyone that those game suck, right?

yes pretty much
Do you have any complaint about how I play other people's games? I guess I have to do everything the elitist MZXer way now.

Well, you should at least play the game, which for some of them includes reading the dialogue that you just absolutely hate so much.

LogiCow, on Jun 30 2009, 05:21 PM, said:

Yeah.

This is why we can't have nice things.

Bawwwwwww astral made fun of me, what a prick.

LogiCow, on Jun 30 2009, 05:21 PM, said:

What I'm seeing here, is the older MZXer clique jumping on me and being defensive because they think all MZX games should resemble each other, with blocky, low framerate movement and tedious dialogues.

What I'm seeing here, is some hack game designer complaining that he can't win the competition by making whatever he wants and then being as loud as possible about his disagreements with the rules. Oh, and calling everyone who disagrees with him a snide, elitist jerk.

LogiCow, on Jun 30 2009, 05:21 PM, said:

Only a slight fraction of all amateur video games even have plots or dialogues. The MZX community lives in an alternate dimension where the plot is almighty and every game needs one.

Proof, you have none. Visit the RPG Maker community lately? Remember Cave Story? You're an idiot. Did you even read the score sheet? It actually says in the category it's at the discretion of the judge, and if they deem story unimportant they can just give you a pass on the category. Note that you don't need a plot to tie a game to a theme (see: one and two line theme attachment devices presented in my original post.)

LogiCow, on Jun 30 2009, 05:21 PM, said:

Furthermore, the gaming world evolved past your standard graphics/sound/etc scoresheet, and no game is seen as the sum of it's parts anymore. The double score sheets mechanics are archaic, and are only a band-aid fix for the lack of theme in games that have tacked-on plots.

I don't really think you get to make comments on how "archaic" things are when you're using a GCS that was considered dated when it was created, on purpose. Who are you to tell everyone that games have "evolved" past score sheets that don't favor your bland and utterly flavorless method of game design? You're just some prick elitist.. hey, wait..

Nobody owes you anything, and you're not going to get a concession that you're somehow the messiah of modern indie game creation just because you're standing around bitching about a competition you're terrible at competing in. You have no proof for your wildass claims about the way the indie scene is, and clearly don't play a wide selection of games if you think what comes out of you represents any of the qualities of the "evolution" you're speaking of. All you're doing is spinning your tires and making yourself look like an ass while you're doing it.

And yeah, the nerve of some people. Now go take your medicine.

[LogiCow]

man, whatever.



I'm out.

edit:

<lolilover> you're not just going to come back in 6 months and pretend it never happened?
<lolilover> just confirming
<logicow> lolilover no
<logicow> there's enough going on for me to visit once in a while
<lolilover> what kind of halfassed leaving forever is that

This post has been edited by LogiCow: 01 July 2009 - 12:40 AM

[Exophase]

Little girl qualities aside, his DoZ games will be missed

Except this one.

[djtiesto]

Yes, NINJAS needs to be a topic. Or Terrorists...

[Dr Lancer-X]

djtiesto, on Jul 1 2009, 02:08 PM, said:

Yes, NINJAS needs to be a topic. Or Terrorists...

or BLACK PEOPLE

[commodorejohn]

djtiesto, on Jul 1 2009, 03:08 AM, said:

Yes, NINJAS needs to be a topic. Or Terrorists...

Are you being sarcastic? Because either one would be totally awesome.

[djtiesto]

Lancer-X, on Jul 1 2009, 03:12 AM, said:

or BLACK PEOPLE

That's another good one...

commodorejohn, on Jul 1 2009, 03:24 AM, said:

Are you being sarcastic? Because either one would be totally awesome.

Not being sarcastic at all. Both would be sick topics and more conducive to gaming than topics like "tranquility" or "news reporters".

[commodorejohn]

Winter 2009 Dualstream Day of Zeux: your topics are SCHADENFREUDE (Abstract) and NINJAS (Concrete). Go!

[weasel]

LogiCow, on Jun 30 2009, 02:21 PM, said:

Analogy: I guess Americans shouldn't complain about world poverty and war because they aren't directly subjected to it. Anyhow I am bringing up constructive criticism on how I think we could improve the DoZ.

Sorry to jump down your throat for this, but this is complete bullshit - by your logic, the very fact that I'm American should mean that I am immune to poverty. Well guess what? I'm out of a job, I'm barely staying afloat on unemployment insurance, and it's only by some miracle that I even have Internet access (yeah, I've even taken to selling off a bunch of stuff and it's hardly helping). I believe your analogy is as broken as the rest of your argument, and I'm convinced that the only reason you started this thread in the first place is because you're not winning.

Oh, and your game is no fun. This is coming from someone who can actually run the thing. Fancy engines do not make up for piss-poor gameplay, crude graphics, and no theme.

[GetDizzy]

LogiCow, on Jun 30 2009, 05:46 PM, said:

The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion
http://www.pibweb.co...blivion_emp.jpg
Okay so that's what, two lines of text, taking about 10% of the screen's real estate? Plus, voice acting to back it up.

Final Fantasy XI
Are you kidding me? This game has three hours of grind for every line of dialog you get.

Mass Effect
http://gallery.techa...fect-Images.jpg
Okay so that's one line of text, plus fully animated with voice acting.

World of Warcraft
Quest descriptions have blocks of text but they always include a brief summary with key points so that you can skip the fluff. You don't play WoW for the quest dialogues, do you?

Guild Wars
By Balthasard's Beard! Rin Burns! (plus, animated with voice acting)

Animal Crossing: Wild World
It has some dialogues, in size 34 fonts, of people wishing you a good day. Not exactly text-heavy. Quite the opposite.

Pokemon
With the exception of the introduction dialogue, which is long and tedious, dialogues are small gossip like "oh my isn't it beautiful today".

Summarized:

LogiCow said:

blah blah blah i'm an idiot

http://en.wikipedia....g_the_goalposts