[Wervyn]

I made a thread announcing the planning stages of the DoZ almost immediately after the previous one finished. This was to get a preliminary sounding of the waters so I could start thinking about a date well in advance, as well as to make it clear that I was going to be running things this time around. According to the poll held then, the best time to hold the DoZ this summer is June 27th-28th (Saturday-Sunday), at 12:00 EDT (16:00 GMT). But very few people have voted in that poll, so if this doesn't sound right to you, go vote on a DoZ date.

Next, I have a couple more questions for you to consider. The first is to get a conclusive leaning on whether Friday-Saturday or Saturday-Sunday is a better time period for the competition. The second revisits the idea to unlink the two scoresheets from the topics, so that each team chooses both a topic and a scoresheet they would like to be used for their game, instead of the way things work now. Note that I have already basically decided to try this experiment, so unless there is a clear pushback against it in the poll, it is what we will be doing. In the last DoZ, opinion on this was split about 50-50.

Finally, the main purpose of this thread is to send out the requisite call for judges. Currently, MZXGiant, Terryn, and myself are on the slate for judging (my reasoning being that since the anonymity rule was rescinded, there's absolutely no reason that the competition host can't judge anymore). djtiesto has also expressed interest, but I need to confirm that he's still around and available. I would like at least two more people, if possible, for a total of five judges.

It is especially important that prospective judges understand up front that the rules this year are going to be strict. I for one, and I imagine many others, have gotten sick and tired of the "do it when I feel like it, how I feel like it" attitude that surrounds judging like a bad odor. I've been pushing for tighter guidelines on judging for the past two DoZs now with very little success, and that's one of the reasons I wanted to take the reins this time. To be short: scores should be finished no later than one week after the end of the competition. That's the OUTSIDE. I also expect at least 300 quality words written on average about each game, in comments. I'd LIKE more, but I'm setting that as a minimum, noting that that's approximately 50 words per category, or a couple of decently sized sentences. This is, of course, on average. Very often there are at least a few joke games where brevity is the soul of wit, or at least it doesn't make sense to spend a lot of time coming up with 300 words to explain that "this game sucked". On the other hand, one thing judges definitely should be doing is spending a proportionate amount of time defending scores that are significantly off the average. That is, if you as a judge think that your score is likely to be significantly different from the other judges' scores, you should probably spend some extra time on that game explaining why you think so and countering potential arguments. Otherwise, you're just going to get yelled at, first by me and then by everyone else. I could come up with a hard mathematical formula to get a number of "acceptable words" on a given game, but honestly, it'd be easier for the judges to just use common sense (which seems an unfortunate rarity, but anyway).

So, if a judge can't finish their scores to an acceptable level by the deadline, then those scores will be dropped, no questions or arguments brooked. If a judge hands me scores that I think are clearly deficient, I will tell him where, and make him do them again, and STILL expect them to be finished by the deadline. Unless I somehow end up with less than three scoresheets by the end of the week (which I find hard to believe with the current lineup, even as lazy as I am), scores will be totaled and posted on that deadline. I would like to end up with five scoresheets, but three would be enough for a consensus opinion among the judges. So if you don't think you can live up to these admittedly stringent requirements, don't apply to be a judge.

And now that all the scary is out of the way, who wants to judge?

"These are hardened criminals little man, they ain't cuddly like me."

[Pyro1588]

i'm tentatively considering judging this time. i'm not sure at this point, but sleeping the whole night and then just playing games and writing doesn't sound like too raw of a deal. further bulletins as events warrant.

[mzxgiant]

I forgot I was judging this O_o

[KKairos]

I'll give it a try if people don't think I'll suck completely.

I can definitely do the deadline when necessary, and I'm more than a little unsure that I'd be able to compete safely (I'm a bit ansi about the whole working-world thing for the first time ever.)

[NoahSoft]

those are alot of words

[CJA]

I'm going to judge the judges this time. I can only handle two commitments at a time, and I already have a job and a school.

[Risu2112]

Just out of curiosity on allowing the teams to select score sheet (which I am generally in favor of) how do you see handling topic focus? Kinda mixed results we had on the last experiment.

[Wervyn]

If by the last experiment you mean "DsDoZ and the End of the World", then yes, topic mashups are an absolutely terrible idea, and only have a place in BKZXs. I could have told you it would be a terrible idea THEN, if anyone had bothered to consult me. I squarely blame you for proposing it in the first place, and asgromo for blithely accepting it without consulting anyone.

The way I approach topic appropriateness now (and I feel like I've had this view for awhile) is less "General" and "Specific" and more "Abstract" and "Concrete". A game that follows the general/abstract theme well would generally be described as "A game about X". A game following the specific/concrete theme well would be better described as "A game where X is a central element." Which is probably just a petty semantic difference, but it's the reason why I divided the scoresheets around this concept, with the idea that to really make a game ABOUT something is hard and multi-layered, whereas to make a game that FEATURES something is much more straightforward.

The reason I (and a lot of other people) want to experiment on this is because I'm not sure it's actually working that way in practice, and I don't know if more theme appropriate topics would help or if it really is just context dependent. It's a flawed experiment too because there's not really any way to control it, and data is hard to really interpret. For example, if people generally pick their scoresheet based on their theme, does it mean that the scoresheets were designed correctly, or just that old habits die hard? If the opposite happens, does it mean there's no correlation, or does it just mean that we picked lousy topics? But despite that, I fully expect the results to be interesting, and argued over for weeks, without greatly affecting the ultimate outcome of the competition. So unless there's a major outcry against it, it's what we'll be doing.

Now as far as selecting topics goes, I'm not going to go out of my way to try to pick topics that work well with both sheets. Nor am I going to specifically try to pick topics that won't work across sheets. But when I pick a topic for the general theme, I will be trying to select something that lends itself to making a game ABOUT something, as fits my idea of how the theme-heavy scoresheet ought to work. And when I pick the other topic, I'll be primarily focused on some concrete thing that can be featured in a game in a variety of different ways, so as to maximize the potential for creativity for people who just want to make a game. And at no time do I think over-specification makes the specific theme better (make a game about grizzly bears building a model of a snowmobile out of toothpicks).

ADDENDUM: One more thing, about what I see happening with the DoZ if it turns out that there is no real correlation between scoresheet and topic. Currently I like the scoresheet separation, I think it provides a very interesting differentiation in the approach to making a game. The hard question is whether they're actually balanced against each other very well or not. I also like having two topics instead of one, since that also allows competitors more chances to center a game on something they actually think will be interesting. But I'm increasingly of the opinion that the distinction between "General" and "Specific" topics is artificial at best, and ultimately fairly useless. And instead of futilely trying to force them to be different, if they really aren't, it would be better to remove the distinction altogether, differentiate competition styles with scoresheets, and simply have two topics.

"Actually yes, do that."

[Risu2112]

I was petitioning for "general/specific" topics because that's what the dsDoZ had always advertised but failed to deliver. Instead favoring "abstract/concrete" topics.
Please note verb tense, I do agree with split score sheets the need for topic distinction (but not necessarily focus) greatly decreases.

Thank god I keep log files. Here's a few fun quotes.

Session Start (risu2112:#dozplan): Fri Jul 18 14:55:22 2008
[14:55] *** #dozplan: Risu2112 Exophase @asgromo
[14:55] *** #dozplan was created on Fri Jul 18 09:45:06 2008.
[14:55] Risu2112: hi
[14:55] *** Wervyn has joined #dozplan.

[15:10] Risu2112: if we leave the specific topic as open ended as it is now, we should allow the teams to chose which table they want to be scored on for either topic
[15:10] Risu2112: since they are almost equally generalized

(at this point the specific topic was "The day of zeux" I think most people would agree even the silly one produced after that was on some level still an improvement. You are all welcome btw.)

Again 7 minutes later I make my plea bargain to seperate the score sheets since no one has any intention of selecting logical topics to match them, Every one gets on board, for some reason it doesn't end up happening.

[15:17] Risu2112: if every one is so committed to the topics being "abstract" and "concrete" over general and specific
[15:17] Risu2112: then let them chose which scoring table
[15:17] Exophase: Hrm...
[15:17] Exophase: Maybe we should.
[15:17] Exophase: Let them choose.
[15:17] Exophase: I'm in favor of that.
[15:17] Exophase: I think that has been a problem before too.
[15:17] Wervyn: Yeah, it'd make a good experiment at least.
[15:17] Risu2112: it would have greatly improved many entries
[15:17] Exophase: asgromo?
[15:17] asgromo: i'm up for it, sure
[15:18] Risu2112: yeah as a matter of fact exo I think the last game of yours I judged I even comented on that
[15:18] Exophase: Then it's agreed :B

Oh, oops 20 minutes later asgromo proposes what is now being referred to as "topic mashups" not I. Exo was there for that convo, his opinion as best as I can derive from the logs was only that he didn't feel topics or subtopics should be genre limiting (didn't seem to bring up any other objections at the time). Werv said nothing (probably went afk).

[15:36] asgromo: here, how about multiple specific themes, all of which have to be incorporated somehow
[15:37] Risu2112: you mean, two themed DoZ and the goal is to use both?
[15:37] asgromo: no
[15:37] Risu2112: or two sets of themes
[15:37] asgromo: for specific, you'd just say "day of zeux AND town of zzt AND copyright infringement"
[15:37] asgromo: or whatever
[15:37] Risu2112: that would be a huge step in the right direction

Again, keep in mind, at this point the topic was going to be "Day of Zeux", almost anything would have been a "huge step in the right direction"

I'm was on board with the concept since this was a round about way of increasing focus. I was never actually in favor of the topics chosen although; iirc they ended up being selected by many contestants, a fairly impressive accomplishment to achieve that popularity for such a 'failed idea' where both sides of the argument were in agreement of the source topics being piss poor. Conceptually I still think it's an alright idea, but I'm not advocating it further because I highly doubt the ability of hosts to come up with decent mash-ups and not just 2 random completely unrelated and frustrating ones.

dsDoS (dual stream day of sandboxing)

[weasel]

Perhaps as an experiment, we could revert back to a single-topic DoZ?

[Risu2112]

weasel, on Apr 30 2009, 02:56 PM, said:

Perhaps as an experiment, we could revert back to a single-topic DoZ?

Single topic and allow teams to select their score sheet? That might actually be an improvement also.

[Exophase]

weasel, on Apr 30 2009, 06:56 PM, said:

Perhaps as an experiment, we could revert back to a single-topic DoZ?

As an experiment do something we already did? What's wrong with having two topics?

[Risu2112]

Quote

Lisa: I tried the coat hanger again, I don't understand why this family just tries ideas once.

Seemed like the original point dual topics was to broaden appeal, allowing teams to select their score sheet seems serves a similar purpose. *shrug*

[NoahSoft]

hey what if we had three topics

[Exophase]

Risu2112, on Apr 30 2009, 08:49 PM, said:

Seemed like the original point dual topics was to broaden appeal, allowing teams to select their score sheet seems serves a similar purpose. *shrug*

They don't serve the same function. The point is that if you hate one of the topics you can use the other one instead, lessening the odds that you'll blame the DoZ for your inability to come up with a decent game. Which is a good thing because people are not going to universally agree that any given topic is any good.

[Dr Lancer-X]

Perhaps as an experiment, we could revert back to having Ibrahim host the DoZ?

[CJA]

Perhaps as an experiment, we could use controversial CIA interrogation tactics on the judges? (I mean, "CJA" is basically "CIA," so I could do it.)

I think you should stick with two topics, because it decreases the chances of having all crappy topics. You'd have to have 2 topics crappy to have all crappy topics in the DSDoZ, wheras in a one-topic DoZ, only one crappy topic would make all the topics crappy.

[Kuddy]

those are alot of words

[Dr Lancer-X]

Kuddy, on May 2 2009, 01:41 PM, said:

those are alot of words

:frostyangel:

You can't enter.

[Old-Sckool]

Lancer-X, on May 2 2009, 02:42 AM, said:

You can't enter.

I agree. Kuddy should be DQed from the DoZ... except he somehow managed to beat me last doz. fuck.


But anyway, I'm still opposed to the split scoring sheets, mostly because of the whole deal where 1/4th of your score is dependant on an abstract topic called Theme. I mean, I just don't see how making a game more focused on the topic would make it a better game. Then again, maybe it would, but wouldn't that be reflected with higher scores in the other topics?

[Dr Lancer-X]

Old-Sckool, on May 5 2009, 01:10 PM, said:

But anyway, I'm still opposed to the split scoring sheets, mostly because of the whole deal where 1/4th of your score is dependant on an abstract topic called Theme. I mean, I just don't see how making a game more focused on the topic would make it a better game. Then again, maybe it would, but wouldn't that be reflected with higher scores in the other topics?

That's the whole point of being able to CHOOSE - of course, you could always choose, but you're stupid and guaranteed to choose poorly, so this time you'd be able to pick your scoresheet directly; in other words, not pick that one.

Anyway, sure, making a game more focused on the topic doesn't necessarily make it a better game; but neither is making a game within 24 hours. This is a COMPETITION. It has RESTRICTIONS. The 24 hour limit is not to get you to make a better game than if you had no time limit at all, and neither is the topic. Use your brain.

[Exophase]

Old-Sckool, on May 4 2009, 11:10 PM, said:

I agree. Kuddy should be DQed from the DoZ... except he somehow managed to beat me last doz. fuck.


But anyway, I'm still opposed to the split scoring sheets, mostly because of the whole deal where 1/4th of your score is dependant on an abstract topic called Theme. I mean, I just don't see how making a game more focused on the topic would make it a better game. Then again, maybe it would, but wouldn't that be reflected with higher scores in the other topics?

If everyone agreed with you then yes, the theme heavy scoresheet would be done away with. That isn't the case. A few years ago we had this big argument thread where Skylark and Wervyn and probably some others I don't remember were arguing that following the theme is a very important part of DoZ games and that's what makes them interesting. The dual scoresheet format came about as a compromise to this. The current idea is a refinement.

I think we'll see fewer people pick the theme heavy sheet because as much as some people might prefer that DoZ games were more theme heavy no one really wants to design their whole game around one. On the other hand, it's usually pretty easy to get theme points even if you only touch on it in the plot so if the rest of your game sucks then maybe it's a good gamble...

[Dr Lancer-X]

Exophase, on May 7 2009, 07:41 AM, said:

On the other hand, it's usually pretty easy to get theme points even if you only touch on it in the plot so if the rest of your game sucks then maybe it's a good gamble...

Why does Drippy and the Evaporated Kingdom immediately come to mind here? =P

[KKairos]

Because it was awesome.

[Fungahhh]

I think a judge judging the judges is a good idea. They could watch out to make sure that the judges are judging properly and submit their results on time. They could be a sort of "watchdog" group.

[Dr Lancer-X]

the judges already have a one-week deadline, what more do you want?

[Exophase]

Fungahhh, on May 10 2009, 07:57 AM, said:

I think a judge judging the judges is a good idea. They could watch out to make sure that the judges are judging properly and submit their results on time. They could be a sort of "watchdog" group.

What good is that going to do if it's completely after the fact? Bad judges are already thrown under the bus afterwards.

[Old-Sckool]

I don't see a judge problem happening this DOZ since the three judges decided so far are pretty comitted to the community.

[Dr Lancer-X]

Doesn't matter how 'committed' they are - people who seem to be generally decent folks can easily possess bad judgment when it comes to scoring DoZ games.

[Koji]

Here!

http://rapidshare.com/files/233122590/Unit...ticism.pdf.html

limited to 10 downloads

It's never too late to learn.